BH Balanced Hackmons

Clas

om majors 2nd place, in 0 om opens r3 (god gamer)
is a Tiering Contributor
oh god I can’t believe liquid ooze of all things, like bro if you don’t suspect test strength sap soon I’m out this, for real, the best and reliable healing move had its one counter and it’s banned, simply wonderful. Please, illuminate me with why getting rid of the one thing that stopped strength sap Was a good idea.
i uh

i dont know what to say to this when it was stated in the banpost that theres multiple other healthy sapblock options that are also just good rn. theres multiple good low-atk options rn like mirai/maud/dia-o/mbro/blobs/etc etc and mbounce is just splashable rn. if sap is giving you this much trouble then maybe re-evaluate if its a builder issue rather than the move being the issue, bc 9/10 times its super easy to cover and the 1/10 is when you run stuff to try to actively counteract sap healing like knockcure and tspikes/hazstack.
 
Sorry to ask bc of no exp in this metagame but Sap Sipper also block Strenght Sap and you gain a +1 Attack for free
Yeah but bounce and stat based are generally preferred for doing more outside of sapblock I.e bounce being able to pivot on wisp/toxic/glare/spikes (as well as the sap mon actually getting farmed for hp + attack reduction). Stat based has good defensive utility I.e blissey countering say, flutter mane and Etern.
 

Tea Guzzler

forever searching for a 10p freddo
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hi so i voted dnb and thought i might as well go through my reasoning, because in my eyes this ban doesn't actually solve the problem it aims to fix

first off: what actually uses sap?
  • basically every arceus. this is due to recover essentially ensuring that standard take heart arceus never wins the imposter matchup; similar sort of issue for tidy up. physical wall arceus also have a much higher preference for it due to sap helping stave off attackers like mchomp and ash-gren. exceptions where they use recover are limited, since outside of rare circumstances (such as a stab SE judge user, like fc ghost), this makes the set complete imposter fodder
  • every dragon energy user (etern, mirai, more niche palk-o and mscept). recover is not sufficient at keeping HP high enough for energy to be a damage threat, which is pretty bad when it's both the main damage show and necessary on all 4 mons to hit imposter with
  • generic offensive mons that want a timer longer than 4 turns (chomp, luc, etc); usually things on the slower end that will need to trade damage more often than something like ash-gren
  • limited defensive options, almost always physical attackers (such as mpert and random yveltal)
there are two ways of blocking sap - via a naturally low attack stat, or via an ability. naturally low attack yields itself to blissey as a special wall and mega audino as either (usually physical; an attack stat of 112 is higher than blissey's but is still only giving arceus just over 25% back). the two main abilities used for sap are ooze and bounce. here's the issue:
  • for special attackers, sapblocking really isn't functionally changing; the only real difference is that the punishment for getting the 50/50 wrong (bounce replacing ooze does not remove the 50/50) is reduced if the opponent is relying on sapblock via bounce rather than low attack. in the majority of cases, teams that want to block sap from special attackers with any consistency are going to use an attack-based blocker, and nothing's reasonably changing in that regard. arceus-ghost is also unlikely to bag a win from this, as bounce yveltal beats in the exact same way ooze yveltal did, and yveltal's whole thing in the recent meta has been "i have a spare mon slot and need a ghost check with some utility" which doesn't seem likely to change.
  • for physical attackers, the main change is the 50/50 situation described above. due to them sort of needing their attack stat, the momentum swing in favour of the bounce user is greater than for special attackers (since a bounced sap means, with almost certainty, you're getting a free switch). all this really changes is the sap user having to reposition their progress maker again rather than it instantly dropping if they guess wrong; undeniably better, but ultimately still down to a 50/50. for things like garchomp whose walls naturally have low attack, like mega audino, expect basically no change.
tl;dr here is ooze's removal doesn't magically fix sapblocking; you're still getting blocked largely the exact same as before, but on the occasion you do run into bounce then the only change is that getting the still-present 50/50 wrong is less punishing. diancie ban freeing up a load of physical attackers also doesn't exactly ease how necessary sap is either.
 

Tea Guzzler

forever searching for a 10p freddo
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Is sapblocking itself the problem? To me, it felt like the problem was getting randomly OHKOd or otherwise severely chunked.
this isn't to say ooze itself wasn't a problem, but sapblocking on the whole is an issue just because recover is such a flawed option, so you're punished whichever option you pick. recover can just run out + physical walls without mbro-level bulk risk can just get spammed down by some random choice bander, and sap can obviously get blocked.
 
this isn't to say ooze itself wasn't a problem, but sapblocking on the whole is an issue just because recover is such a flawed option, so you're punished whichever option you pick. recover can just run out + physical walls without mbro-level bulk risk can just get spammed down by some random choice bander, and sap can obviously get blocked.
The fact that Sap has 16PP versus recovers 8PP makes sapblocking almost necessary in this meta, otherwise you will just get rolled by almost every Arceus on the ladder. Not to mention, all other sap block methods have much more prevalence in the meta compared to Ooze, which the only uses i can think of for it (outside of sap blocking) are countering bounce by sapping it and in niche cases against Triage users


Regarding retests, we are currently looking at the window between the end of BH open and the start of OMPL as the time to retest certain elements. The currently banned elements that we are potentially going to retest are Lumina Crash, Photon Geyser, and Substitute
Lumina Crash i feel iffy on, id have to playtest with it, Photon Geyser i dont understand why it got banned in the first place, but Substitute would force all the fun sweepers to change their ability to unaware or infiltrator or just lose to stall, and Im fairly certain it also blocks Sap (correct me if Im wrong), so it would just make Ooze seem weak by comparison
 

Shay's Fate

formerly La fusión más 7u7
oh god I can’t believe liquid ooze of all things, like bro if you don’t suspect test strength sap soon I’m out this, for real, the best and reliable healing move had its one counter and it’s banned, simply wonderful. Please, illuminate me with why getting rid of the one thing that stopped strength sap Was a good idea.
Literally a skill issue, there's more sapblocking methods other than just erasing the opposing Pokemon (who would've guessed that it would be unhealthy) and that's a good thing. You can run Blissey or Magic Bounce, those are great and block Strength Sap.
 
The way I understand this ban, is not that sap blocking is "broken", but more so that Liquid Ooze is uncompetitive. It is very difficult to tell from preview that an opposing team has liquid ooze, and it is nearly impossible to prep vs. besides "not using sap" or using a magic guard strength sap pokemon. To be punished instantly, and so catastrophically, when strength sap is necessary on many sets, and has to be clicked is understandably uncompetitive. While other sap blocking strategies are still very powerful, they only hinder progress, w/o the added punishment, so playing around them can be done in a more competitive manner. Strategies such as using wish support for example, can be a competitive way to play around magic bounce / sap sipper / blissey teams, or double recovery can be used. Such a ban overall to me, feels like it aligns well with tiering focused on building a competitive metagame, with ample strategies to counter specific strategies, and give ample opportunity to play around counters. Liquid Ooze can be used once, and if successful, cannot be countered. If unsuccessfully, gameplay becomes extremely strained (similar to how Cramorant was in gen8bh, it does nothing besides cripple your mon, but it's mere presence is enough to warrant a totally different game plan when it is on the field). Strategies like magic bounce / sap sipper / blissey deny progress, but allow more proactive counter play both in-game and in the builder, which liquid ooze does not.
 
As someone who didnt play gen8BH, please enlighten me as to what the funny little bird did
ahahahaha, sorry sorry I should have explained. Because formes are freed in bh, you were able to use cramorant in its "Gorging" form with Gulp Missile. In its gorging form, when you attack Cramorant (physical or special or non-contact) you take 25% damage and get paralyzed. This meant that if the opp had Cram, you were scared to click any attack, in fear that your pokemon will be instantly crippled. It was truly a terrible (but memorable) time for gen8bh. Although it's not 1 to 1, the strain it put on teambuilding, and the gameplay around it felt similar to that of liquid ooze, so I thought it was worth a mention for comparison.
 
Literally a skill issue, there's more sapblocking methods other than just erasing the opposing Pokemon (who would've guessed that it would be unhealthy) and that's a good thing. You can run Blissey or Magic Bounce, those are great and block Strength Sap.
Please refer to Tea Guzzler's post where he elaborates on why he voted DnB to Liquid ooze. "skill-issue" isn't part of it when other options work, i'm saying banning it wasn't a good idea because of it not solving the problem. Sure you can say skill issue because "haha funny meme on imperium what a dummy" but honestly banning it is more of "I don't like that the best healing move comes with the risk of being mega countered", it balanced out other healing moves because they at least don't come with the risk Str sap does, but now the big counter is gone and now is only half punished.
 
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I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding going on here.
Banning Liquid Ooze isn't about "solving the sapblocking problem", sapblocking will and should remain an integral part of the metagame. But the issue was that Liquid Ooze was too powerful of a sapblocking option since it doesn't leave the option to come in later and try to sap again when the sapblocker has been put under more pressure.
In Imperium's post they mention how "not having the risk of getting ooze balanced out the other healing moves" but that's not really what matters here. Strength sap being the most viable healing option isn't something that will be changed by bans or unbans (besides banning sap lmao). It's a natural consequence of the lack of trapping options, the difficulty of fitting anti-setup against physical attackers and 8 pp healing making it impossible to stall out the powerful 8 pp moves like you could before. The other healing moves are never going to be worth using over sap on a huge portion of mons because needing to run shackle or mean look makes any defensive mon become insanely passive. There's a reason people are running scales sap users.
So the argument that "Council just wants to buff Sap even further", while completely misguided, isn't actually wrong. Sap is the meta healing move and removing it would lead to the tier becoming unplayably passive with every defensive mon running some god awful do-nothing set to prevent Imp from farming it for heals. (inb4 "ban Imposter then" which has been suitably adressed earlier in the thread). So because we're stuck with Sap, we may as well make sapblocking an actually healthy part of the metagame instead of "lol I got one predict right there goes your defensive core".

Anyway, I've built two teams recently in the new meta I'd like to share.

1707230136445.png

This team is a sequel to the superman semistall I built back in the Lumina Crash meta. It features an unorthodox defensive core that is fully immune to hazards and highly resistant to knock off and chip while stacking multiple layers of spikes and rocks to make progress. Has some issues with non-standard Take Heart users and opposing Magic Guard and the lack of Imposter makes it vulnerable to the usual ladder shenanigans but overall it's worked quite well on ladder and has been used in the BH ghosting tour successfully.

1707230302675.png

This one is a modification of my old ashgren + mg blissey team that replaces Magma Storm FC Poisonceus with KoffSalt FC Waterceus and replaces Scarf Steely Spirit Kartana with Scarf Desolate Land MBlaziken. The core of Sniper Ashgren, MG Blissey and FC MAudino has been extremely consistent for me and I believe you could make it work with a variety of mons in the other 3 slots so long as one of them is very fast (you need a fast breaker to make Blissey's Teleport a sufficient answer to setup special attackers). Ashgren's Magical Torque is mostly filler so you could swap it for Frost Breath, Flip Turn, Sucker Punch etc. The team has seen success on ladder and in test games.

Currently, I feel like the meta is a little matchup fishy, but not to the extent where it feels unplayable. I'm not sure how you could improve that though given nothing feels overwhelmingly powerful.
 
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Please refer to Tea Guzzler's post where he elaborates on why he voted DnB to Liquid ooze. "skill-issue" isn't part of it when other options work, i'm saying banning it wasn't a good idea because of it not solving the problem. Sure you can say skill issue because "haha funny meme on imperium what a dummy" but honestly banning it is more of "I don't like that the best healing move comes with the risk of being mega countered, it balanced out other healing moves because they at least don't come with the risk Str sap does, but now the big counter is gone and now is only half punished.
I think it's not accurate to describe ooze as a counter of sap. A counter is something can wall you but you can still switch. As ooze directly kill your pm, it's more close to a fatal trapper for sap users.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
im more known/knowledgeable based off the older gen's, but if something really obviously "the best" is being counterplayed, its not that the counterplay is broken, its moreso your intentionally falling into a trap thats exploitable.

other then it being "Better" is there any other reason your not just running normal recovery? last gens shore up was basically the most popular healing move, because sand was actually a viable weather effect due to buffing spc def of aerialate counters, so imprison blocking was a very popular counter measure, esp with the additional bonus of imposterproofing, which WOULD'VE made the move banworthy, but it wasn't like we couldn't just...use recover/roost instead despite it being the clear superior option. other strats fell into this logic too.

im not knowledgeable on this gen, so im not going to say im right, because 8pp on defensive mons sounds atrocious and could very well be a reason for sap sipper being necessary to use, but im just going to leave this trail of thought here.
 

Tea Guzzler

forever searching for a 10p freddo
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other then it being "Better" is there any other reason your not just running normal recovery? last gens shore up was basically the most popular healing move, because sand was actually a viable weather effect due to buffing spc def of aerialate counters, so imprison blocking was a very popular counter measure, esp with the additional bonus of imposterproofing, which WOULD'VE made the move banworthy, but it wasn't like we couldn't just...use recover/roost instead despite it being the clear superior option. other strats fell into this logic too.
strength sap is used over recover because:
  • you're very unlikely to just "run out" given you have twice the pp; you can thus afford to heal at higher remaining HP (essentially you can get away with not getting 100% efficient recovery much more than with recover) much more easily, making choiced wallbreakers a lot less threatening
  • you can avoid situations where a phys wallbreaker you don't instantly threaten can just sit there and keep smashing away at your recovers
  • it's significantly less exploitable by imposter (in essentially every case, "standard sap" mons that opt into recover either need to be arceus-ghost or carry a trapping move; mons that usually carry recover can only really justify it via their bulk and typing -> just pad the imp matchup with some random utility, which something like arceus-fairy simply cannot do)
  • you just heal more than recover against a good chunk of pokemon, especially as the builder loves giving you max attack EVs when running any physical move regardless of its bp
unless you're on about a different time in gen 8 than me (maybe when shed was legal idk), sand was not viable at all; nihilego was a meme pick and nothing else was using sand stream. despite shore up being technically better than the others due to the sand interaction, while imprison was still around, it was standard practice to just ignore the sand buff and use one of every recovery move to blank imprisonform. imprison's ban ended up being solely down to imprisonform. sap has no such alternative; it's either deal with sapblocking tools or forfeit all of the benefits listed above, which is why "just use recover if you don't want to get sapblocked" doesn't really work in practice.
 
I don't really agree with some points brought up in this post (also like very delayed response but whatever)
there are two ways of blocking sap - via a naturally low attack stat, or via an ability. naturally low attack yields itself to blissey as a special wall and mega audino as either (usually physical; an attack stat of 112 is higher than blissey's but is still only giving arceus just over 25% back). the two main abilities used for sap are ooze and bounce. here's the issue:
  • for special attackers, sapblocking really isn't functionally changing; the only real difference is that the punishment for getting the 50/50 wrong (bounce replacing ooze does not remove the 50/50) is reduced if the opponent is relying on sapblock via bounce rather than low attack. in the majority of cases, teams that want to block sap from special attackers with any consistency are going to use an attack-based blocker, and nothing's reasonably changing in that regard. arceus-ghost is also unlikely to bag a win from this, as bounce yveltal beats in the exact same way ooze yveltal did, and yveltal's whole thing in the recent meta has been "i have a spare mon slot and need a ghost check with some utility" which doesn't seem likely to change.
  • for physical attackers, the main change is the 50/50 situation described above. due to them sort of needing their attack stat, the momentum swing in favour of the bounce user is greater than for special attackers (since a bounced sap means, with almost certainty, you're getting a free switch). all this really changes is the sap user having to reposition their progress maker again rather than it instantly dropping if they guess wrong; undeniably better, but ultimately still down to a 50/50. for things like garchomp whose walls naturally have low attack, like mega audino, expect basically no change.
tl;dr here is ooze's removal doesn't magically fix sapblocking; you're still getting blocked largely the exact same as before, but on the occasion you do run into bounce then the only change is that getting the still-present 50/50 wrong is less punishing. diancie ban freeing up a load of physical attackers also doesn't exactly ease how necessary sap is either.
To me, there are pretty clear differences between the 3 primary sapblock methods (Ooze, Statbased, Bounce) that make Ooze standout as "bad" while the other two are more reasonably healthy and competitive. In other words, Ooze is the only unhealthy form of sapblocking and its removal does fix sapblocking by making it more competitive.

Firstly, statbased is pretty limited in options. There are very limited viable mons that have low enough attack to sapblock, and of those even fewer can hard sapblock, as even lowish attack mons like MAud still provide a decent amount of health to the sap user that gives them leeway to play. Thus, the only true statbased sapblocker that is meta is Blissey, which has the highly exploitable defense stat, making any physically oriented sap user impossible to sapblock though Blissey.

Then, for the difference in interaction between Bounce and Ooze, consider the following scenarios:
1. Positive matchup for sap user.
If sap user is physically oriented, the matchup against Bounce is a bit worse, but still better than Ooze. Sapping into a bounce most of the time would force the sap user to switch out unless its a 4x weak matchup or something. However, this still gives the sap user the opportunity to come in later and make another prediction to heal up if the player somehow generates that opportunity, as opposed to Ooze straight up killing said mon.
If sap user is specially oriented, then even if the Bounce mon switches into the sap, it still has to play a dangerous 50/50 the following turn, as opposed to Ooze straight up killing said mon and turning it into a true 50/50. Obviously if the Bounce mon switches into an attack then it is a good result for the sap user.

2. Neutral matchup.
Kind of similar to above, if you end up sapping on Bounce you lose momentum and have to figure out a way to heal up the mon later without losing to the offensive threat (which would involve some accurate predicts as well), but at least you are not losing the mon immediately.

3. Bad matchup for sap user.
This is over for the sap user either way.

Scenario 1 is the most important difference between Bounce and Ooze. Without Ooze it is possible to prep for certain common Bounce mons or have your sap users cover a wide range of Bounce mons (e.g. not have all your sap mons get walled by Bounce Audino or something) while with Ooze even with prep you still cannot be safe in game. One example I have regarding this was when I used Ooze Yveltal a while back and forced 50/50s against stuff like Sap Miraidon and Fairyceus that have no business existing when Yveltal hard loses to both if it was Bounce.

===============================
Regarding current meta, played quite a few games recently and tried some stuff, observations so far

:rusted-sword: Offensive meta is very diverse currently, there aren't really any clear standout options, and stuff like Ashgren, Necro, Zam, Flutter, Chomp, and others are all great choices. Ashgren in particular is pretty strong because it can play physical or mixed (special is very specific) while the others are more or less specialized since SpA Necro is competing hard against Zam. Flutter is interesting because Moongeist is a broke move but from playing with Flare Boost set (and Specs previously) it actually lacks power to hit OHKO/2HKOs because of not running Astral, and requires strong Knock Off support to prevent being farmed by RegenVests into Imp/RK.

:life-orb: Magic Guard is really good and a lot of stuff can viably run it including dragons and waters. Dodge every form of chip, use Mortal Spin to advantageously dodge Para and Burn, free item choice which includes free Life Orb damage boost. For Waters it also enables a spammable Wave Crash. Just generally easy to fit as a supporting offensive option that provides a degree of defensive utility, can improof stuff, and helps switch into annoying stuff for momentum (or to not lose it). A pretty easy generic structure is breaker MG FurScales additional defensive Imp.

:rusted-shield: Defensive meta sees the reintroduction of some things that were obsolete in the prior MMX DeoA Diancie meta, while the only notable mon that phases out is Poisonceus, overall meaning a more diverse defensive meta to try to handle the diverse offensive meta. Moongeist and Sunsteel do have an impact on defensive meta by encouraging resists for the respective FurScales ability.

:mail: Also stay tuned for a Resources overhaul soontm with an updated VR, Role Compendium, Speed tiers, and analyses will also open soon.
 

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